Robert J. Clark, 50 Year ASHRAE member and member of the Florida West Coat Chapter Interview performed November 10, 1994 by Robert P. Sutton, Chapter Historian and William Slade, Chapter President. The following is a transcript of the interview developed from a recording made at the time of the interview. Non-historical references have been removed.

A Norden Bombsight.

( Clark = C, Sutton = S, Slade = SL )

S= Asked about Mr. Clarks recall of who had started the original chapter and if he knew any of the individuals t that time, 1955-56. Mr. S recalled a former member J.P. Griffin as none of the original charter members. Also, Mr. S recalled a conversation with David Lawson of our chapter and referenced Mr. Karl Hickman, Mr. Hooser, Bonner. Mr. S recalled ammonia and CO2 systems.

C=Yes we worked very closely together [with J.P. Griffin], I don't remember the others. Yes we had ammonia systems with steel pipe cores. We had some of that, of course during the war , refrigeration and air conditioning was still in its infancy.

S=You graduated from Case Institute in 1942.

C= Yes I had gone to college seven years, I graduated from high school in 1931 and I graduated from college in 1941.

S=You left the Cleveland area, and then came to Florida, how did that come about?

C=I got married in 1938, we moved to Florida in Jan. 1946.

S= And you started your company at that time.

C= Yes

S=And you had worked in construction prior to that time?

C=The early part from high school to college was all construction was commercial and industrial construction. Then the war came on and we were building a couple of war plants. I was offered a Lt. Commander in the Seabees.

S=Starting right off? Because you had a college degree?

C=This happened in 1942, my senior year in college, I was putting the third floor on the chemistry building on the campus. I was superintendent of construction on that. I was also finishing up construction on Plant No. 3 for Jack and Heintz, which was an aircraft instrument company, and I was going to go into the Seabees, and Bill Jack, President of Jack and Heintz, called me in and said you can't go in the service, we just got a contract for 3000 Norden Bomb sights, and they needed a 5 acre plant to be built in two months. So, Colonel Mike Moriarty, Chief of Procurement, he was along, we need you here.

S= So, you went in the service or what?

C=no, I never went in the service, I built that plant. We built that plant in 47 days, 200,000 square feet, 5 acres.

S=47 days, you must have had 2000 workers to do that.

C=Just about, we worked 24 hours a day seven day a week. We put out a call for men and in the first week we had about 10 teams out west. We decided we would use slow burning mill type construction, heavy timbers, 12x12, 12x14, 12x18, because steel was at a premium. So we had the teams in Oregon and Washington to buy up lumber and they would hire another person and they would ride the lumber back to the job site. You couldn't trust the transportation, so you had to have somebody, on the car, and they had camping gear, sleeping packs.

S=It sound like lumber was at a premium too.

C=Well that heavy mill type.

S= So after you finished working up there you decided to move or start to think about moving to Florida and starting a business.

C= Well, had I worked a little bit with some ammonia, and refrigerated meat and meat products. But, in this plant we had to test these aircraft instruments under hellish conditions, because at that time we had invaded North Africa, and here was a airplane sitting on a the tarmac out there and 10 minutes later it was 60000 ft in the air, and you can imagine what that does to instrumentation. We had built test chambers that simulated the 120 degree temperature on the ground and ten minutes later it at minus 60 degrees and you had to verify the air in the test chamber at the same time that you brought the temperature down. There was no information on stuff like that in 1943, and of course I went to ASHRAE, and we called in York, they were heavy in refrigeration, and a couple others and we got the job done. Cost meant nothing back then. We had the highest priority, we thought anyway. We had a 200 horsepower air compressor coming in, a Fuller rotary, because the compressor type were just non-existent, and this compressor was sitting on a boxcar and a young Lt. came along and said he was confiscating this compressor. We said to get out, we had the highest priority, and he said you are second place now, we are with the "Manhattan Project."

S=So he took it.

C=Yes, there went my 200 HP compressor.

SL=I read that the Norden bomb sight was top, top secret, and was one of the most closely guarded things that we had?

C=yes, we built it under their license. They got $4,400 for the Norden bomb sight, and we took our first contract for 3000 of them at $3,000 a piece. Then, after the first shipment we lowered our price to $1,700. That was the secret of being able to manufacture in an air conditioned space. Norden couldn't do it, they couldn't hold their tolerances, because they were manufacturing them in a non-air conditioned factory and plant 5 was a air conditioned factory.

SL=Where was the Plant No. 5 located?

C=Bedford, right outside of Cleveland, Ohio.

SL=How much ammonia was involved in operating that system.

C= None, we had used all F12.

S=That was the first refrigerant?

C=Yeah, that was the first of the hydrocarbons.

S= To get that kind of temperatures, minus 60, you didn't need a brine?

C=No, it was a cascaded system?

S= In several stages, It was all R12, and you could get it that low?

C=Yes. The Norden bomb sight was put together with aluminum rivets, and the rivets had to be set, and we pulled them out of a minus 90 chamber. I think that was a three stage reduction, but of course it was small, a space like 18"x12"x24"(hand gesture).

S=How big was the Norden bomb sight?

C=It was 18"x12"x24".

S=Was it an optical device?

C=Yes.

S=So it was like a telescope, a viewing port?

C=Yeah, you would adjust it for your speed, altitude, you put those all in and get lined up.

S=So it was a physical line up with the target?

C=Yes. You had a bombardier who took over the bomb sight and it was tied into the automatic pilot, which we also manufactured under license from Sperry.

S= The company was named what again?

C=Jack and Heintz, we worked two twelve hour shifts, seven to seven, we had two days a year off, Christmas and Easter.

SL=Did you continue to manufacture up until the end of the war?

C=Yes, then the government broke us, took all our profits away.

S=So you stared representing equipment here in Florida, and started Clark Equipment Sales, in 1948, right?

C=No, 1946.

S= So you came down here and opened up three offices?

C=It just happened that way.

S=Because the manufacturers needed reps in this area?

C=Well there was no air conditioning in this area. We had to start from scratch.

SL= What was the first building you did down here? As far as air conditioning, big size equipment?

C=Well , Hillsborough County Courthouse, Jimmy Griffin did that, he was a mechanical contractor, and I sold everything on the job.

SL=Do you recall what kind of system it was?

C=Yes it was a direct expansion. Yeah, that really hurt, Jimmy went down to do some quail hunting and some drinking, got in the airplane, they ran into a thunder storm, and the plane crashed killing everyone on board.

SL=I talked with Lester Olsen, Do you know Lester?

C=Yes, he was Jimmy's right hand man.

SL=Yes and then (the business) sort of passed down to Lester and then on to Harry Lingerfeld, and to then Harry passed it on to his son. Harry just passed away a couple of years ago, He passed the business on to his son. J.P. Griffin is still going strong.

C=I'll be dog gone.

S= Yes they do a lot of repair work, I'm not sure if they do refrigeration.

SL=Yes some.

S= What type of equipment did you sell?

C=American Air Filter, and our big account was Canard, which American Air Filter eventually bought. We actually were pioneers in air handling, packaged air handlers.

S=You had other equipment too?

C=Yes, Tuttle and Bailey.

S=So you mostly did air side?

C=Yes.

S=Do you know Stan Weaver, he sells mostly air side products?

C=I know many of these fellows by name. You see I spent a week in Miami, a week in Jacksonville, and a week in Orlando-Tallahassee, and a week in Clearwater-Tampa. So I was never still long enough to get to know everyone.

S=Several of the reps did the same thing.

C= Yes it was rough on the wife.

S=So you started Boating here?

C=Yes here almost immediately, I always loved the water. Yeah that boat could make money like you wouldn't believe. You could sure make a friend of a consulting engineer on the back of a boat with having him hooked onto a 100 lb. Tarpon.

S=Did you ever get into other parts of boating, sales etc.?

C=Yes, I had another company selling boats at the wholesale and retail level. Clearwater Products.

S=What type of boat was it?

C=We had the franchise for Thunderbird. It was small, the largest was 24 ft.

S= Well, your were a real entrepreneur back then?

C= Yeah, had a skin diving shop. Taught skin diving. I've done a lot of stuff, had a lot of fun.

S=How did you manage to do all these things?

C= I had a good woman behind me.

S=Did you have a lot of employees?

C= The most we ever had was 22.

S= That was at Clark Equipment at these three locations?

C= Yes.

S=You probably had some salesmen working for you that we know now.

C=Yes, like Buzz Boissenault. He was our Orlando man.

S=So when did you start to travel on freighters? I read a little story about that.

C=My wife and I started in 1970 and have been on seven trips around the world. It has been great.

SL=So as far as ASHRAE was concerned, back when the our chapter started?

C=I was bouncing around the state and didn't have time to sit down. I went to more ASHRAE meetings in Miami than any other.

S=Did you go to the annual meeting for ASHRAE? I know that reps pick up lines at those meetings.

C=Yes I would go and I'd have most of my men go up there too.

SL= What was the average gross margin back when you were selling?

C= Who invoiced it? The factory?

SL=No, say you invoiced it.

C= I guess between 15 and 20%. Factory would run 10-15%. About 10 % less for factory.

S=I would like to have a history night, to have a round table discussion about things that went on in the state as well as a local level. I would like you to attend along with others.

SL=Yes, Mark Mooney. C=I haven't seen Mark Mooney in a long time.

S= And Jim Hargan, you know him?

C= Oh yes. Is he still around? What happened to Chuck Healy?

S= Chuck passed away about 10 years ago.

C= Oh, I've been gone a lot traveling and it is hard to keep up. What happened to Dick Peck?

S= He's making helicopters now. He was with Jack Spang and sold air distribution didn't he?

C= Yeah, and Glen Logsden. Yes jack Spang and Dick Peck merged.

SL=On the way over Lester Olsen called and he was looking for a guy named Henry Putnam. Do you know him.

S=I think he is in Lakeland and in our membership.

S=We are going to a meeting next week with a bunch of guys the older guys, the Founders Club, next week. Lester Olsen, Mark Mooney, Buzz Boissenault, and other will be there.

SL=Do you know Charlie Caccamo?

C=Yes, and what about Furman Whitaker? S=He is working with Stan Weaver. Wasn't he with Dick Peck?

C=No, he was with me.

S=He may not be a ASHRAE member, but we can still invite him because he was one of the original members and res in the area. We can come up with a list of 10 guys or so and have a round table discussion.

C=Your Founders Club is when?

SL= That's next week.

C=What's the date?

S=Nov. 17, next week Its just a 5-7 pm meeting. I'm sure they would like you to come.

SL=I have Lester's number and you can give him a call.

SL=I have a question? How did you guys deal with humidity back then.?

C=Did you ever see a draftsman with plastic under his arms to keep the sweat off the drawings?

S=I'm sure the conditions they had to work under were difficult. How were engineers dealing with and controlling humidity back then?

C=There had never been a concerted effort in my span in the business to control humidity, because it cost money. When you have to bring that temperature down and then reheat. Energy and equipment bills go up and the architect accuses the engineer of goldplating the job.

SL=Now the lawyers are starting to find IAQ problems and developing law suits. It has become somewhat feasible now and it staring to be considered necessary and affordable.

C=My daughter is an environmental attorney, I ask her about that.

S=Yes, environmental firms and attorneys are the ones going after this type of work, with some actually adding a section of their business that is IAQ.

SL=Did you use face and bypass? What was the outside air requirement per person then?

C=No, it still goes back to economics. It took over two to three years in Tallahassee to get the State School building code changed so we could build an air conditioned school. You had to have so much operating sash(windows), so much fresh air coming in, so much of the windows operating and non-operating.

S=They didn't start air conditioning schools until when?

C=The first really air conditioned school built from the ground up was Oak Grove School on Belcher Ave. (in Clearwater). That had American Air Filter unit ventilators in it.

S=They have been trying to get away from those recently, with humidity problems and that type thing.

C=Well you can't beat that humidity problem unless you open up the pocket books.

S=And also get a nice deep coil?

C= Yes, I built my first home in Clearwater in 1949, and I put in a good heating and air conditioning system. It cost me $4,000 for that system. It was three tons.

S=You must have had quite a system. What did you do?

C=Well, like you were saying with depth of coil, and I didn't want to reheat in a home, I couldn't afford it. So the only way to do it was depth of coil. I had Sam Canard make me some special coils at 12 fins per inch, and 6 or 8 rows deep, and I also had one other thing. I had to rev the fan up to get the air through but it (the coil) muffled the noise.

S= I bet the air came off the coil pretty cold?

C=Well, yes but I had outside air to limit that some so it wasn't too cold.

S=How did you control capacity of the unit?

C=Just on off operation. We built that house in 1949. The system is still running.

Later Mr. Clark telephoned me and added a few more word about outside air:

C=I forgot to tell you about one system we used during the war for outside air. It was a Kathabar system, with Lithium Chloride, Lithium Bromide that helped to reduce the outside air load.

S=Yes, I heard of that system. Where did you use it?

C=Well, we used it in hospitals mostly. It helped to reduce the load by absorbing the moisture and then it was boiled off and regenerated, similar to a desiccant system.